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Had trouble posting this morning

Then pfffft

Thread gone.

A lot of good info in those 200 pages.

Anyone archive anything?

If so post here.

Could be they only want important information on the thread . tongue.gif
Is it just me?
I got a 'forum under maint' message, then when I logged back in it was gone.
Guess I should have looked further.
You official story advocates need to explain this away......

September 6, 2001 - Some of the put options placed on United Airlines stock were purchased through the investment banking firm of Deutsche Banc Alex. Brown in which the current Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard, used to be the company's CEO up until 1998.

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"Investors have yet to collect more than $2.5 million in profits they made trading options in the stock of United Airlines before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, according to a source familiar with the trades and market data.
The source familiar with the United trades identified Deutsche Banc Alex. Brown, the American investment banking arm of German giant Deutsche Bank, as the investment bank used to purchase at least some of the options. Rohini Pragasam, a bank spokeswoman, declined comment."
- San Francisco Chronicle (09/29/01)

"Share speculators have failed to collect $2.5m (£1.7m) in profits made from the fall in the share price of United Airlines after the 11 September World Trade Centre attacks. The fact that the money is unclaimed more than a month later has re-awakened investigators' interest in a story dismissed as coincidence.
It may be that investors who were able to predict the share price crash so skillfully are reluctant to be seen profiting from tragedy. But investigators now wonder whether there is a more sinister explanation.
To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also emerged that the firm used to buy many of the "put" options – where a trader, in effect, bets on a share price fall – on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by "Buzzy" Krongard, now executive director of the CIA.

Until 1997, Mr Krongard was chairman of Alex Brown Inc, America's oldest investment banking firm. Alex Brown was acquired by Bankers Trust, which in turn was bought by Deutsche Bank. His last post before resigning to take his senior role in the CIA was to head Bankers Trust – Alex Brown's private client business, dealing with the accounts and investments of wealthy customers around the world.
There is no suggestion that Mr Krongard had advance knowledge of the attacks.
It was not just airlines that were targeted by remarkably canny investors. One of the biggest occupants of the World Trade Centre was Morgan Stanley, the investment bank. In the first week of September, an average of 27 put option contracts was bought each day in its shares. The total for the three days before the attacks was 2,157. Merrill Lynch, another WTC tenant, saw 12,215 put options bought in the four days before the attacks, when the previous days had seen averages of 252 contracts a day."

"The Director of Central Intelligence (DCI), George J. Tenet, announced today the appointment of A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard to serve as Executive Director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

The Executive Director is the third ranking position within the CIA and the incumbent functions essentially as the Chief Operating Officer of the Agency. For the past three years Mr. Krongard has served as Counselor to the DCI.
A longtime consultant to DCIs, Mr. Krongard joined the Agency full time in February, 1998 following an extraordinary 29-year business career. During his private sector career he served as Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the Board of Alex. Brown Incorporated, the nation’s oldest investment banking firm, and Vice Chairman of the Board of Bankers Trust.

Mr. Krongard received an A.B. degree with honors from Princeton University and a Juris Doctor degree with honors from the University of Maryland School of Law. He served three years of active duty as an infantry officer with the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. Krongard will succeed David W. Carey. Mr. Carey has been Executive Director since July, 1997...
Mr. Krongard will assume his new duties effective Monday March 26, 2001."
- CIA (03/16/01)

"A. B. “Buzzy” Krongard was appointed Executive Director of the Central Intelligence Agency on March 26, 2001. From February 1998 until March 2001, Mr. Krongard served as Counselor to the Director of Central Intelligence.

Mr. Krongard had previously worked in various capacities at Alex. Brown Incorporated, the nation’s oldest investment banking firm. In 1991 he was elected as Chief Executive Officer and assumed the additional duties of Chairman of the Board in 1994. Upon the merger of Alex. Brown with Bankers Trust Corporation in September 1997, Mr. Krongard became Vice Chairman of the Board of Bankers Trust and served in such capacity until joining CIA.

Mr. Krongard was involved in many industry and community activities. He served as Chairman of the Securities Industry Association in 1996 and was named the outstanding executive in the financial services industry in 1995 and 1996 by Financial World."
- CIA (03/26/01) [Reprinted at: NewsMine]

"A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard '58 once punched a great white shark in the head on a bet. He practices lethal martial arts with an intensity that is frightening. And the only guns he collects are ones he can use. 61, Krongard signed on with the company -- the CIA. That's right. The Central Intelligence Agency. Spooks. Classified briefings. Krongard has left behind high finance to jet around the world clandestinely as counselor to CIA Director George Tenet. The CIA created the job for him.

Colleagues and family say they're not surprised Krongard chose a second career in the perilous world of international espionage. He's a former Marine with an outspoken nogutsnoglory persona that made him stand out among the reserved, grayflanneled ranks of investment bankers.

Some intelligence experts say Krongard might be just what the CIA needs now. He earned a reputation for being brutally honest while building Baltimore brokerage Alex. Brown into a respected Wall Street player before Bankers Trust bought it in 1997.

Krongard is a larger-than-life character whose words often beg to be accompanied by the Marine anthem. Friends say he exudes a stormthebeach brand of patriotism.

Krongard's business experience began 36 years ago when he went to work for his father-inlaw's label and patch company in Baltimore after a threeyear stint in the Marines. He got hooked on the art -- and adrenaline -- of dealmaking when negotiating the sale of the company. He knew finance was for him. In 1971, he joined what was then called Alex. Brown & Sons as a finance associate. Under Krongard's leadership as CEO at Alex. Brown, the firm was transformed from a regional brokerage into a Wall Street force, all the while remaining headquartered in Krongard's native Baltimore. Between 1992 and 1996, the firm's revenue grew from $445 million to more than $1 billion.

The firm also became a leader in underwriting initial public offerings, a lucrative business that made Alex. Brown an attractive target for Bankers Trust. The bank bought the firm for $1.7 billion last year, and the deal left Krongard with $71 million in Bankers Trust stock. In his last year at the firm, Krongard made $4 million in salary and bonus."
- Princeton Class Notes (11/04/98)

September 7, 2001 - Large number of "put" options are placed on Boeing stock betting that the stock price would fall.

"Securities regulators around the world are investigating whether the terrorists involved in last week's attack profited in financial markets, possibly by buying options on the stock of United Airlines, Boeing, American Airlines and other companies in the knowledge that prices would fall.

Put volume for Boeing on Sept. 7 totaled 27,294, more than five times its average daily put volume this year."
- Chicago Tribune (09/19/01),3496437.story

It's pretty obvious to me that a bunch of physics enthusiasts might have checked the discrepancy between the "Official" collapse times as compared to a "minimum" that might be roughly determined via Conservation of Momentum. To my knowledge that law is still in effect (if Congress hasn't repealed it), and the "roughness" can be at your own discretion.

I'm sure you're aware that NIST didn't do anything like this (for the towers, anyway); or if they did they didn't release it. They did NO analysis after the onset of collapse and said it was obvious from the video that once it started, it continued all the way to the ground. A pretty good analysis for 20 million and however many years, don't you think?

An ultra-simplistic version would be to analyze the acceleration of each floor and impact with the next while making an appropriate correction for approximately 80% of total above ground mass found OUTSIDE the building footprint. To further simplify it, allow collapse to initiate from the roof. The actual time of the roof passing floor 96 (for WTC1) is within 0.2 or 0.3 sec of freefall anyway, and readily visible in several videos. Correct that as you please, but below the collapse initiation point, this becomes a VERY good way to analyze it.

The only numbers required (in the simplest case) are the height of the tower and the number of floors. Assuming equal mass floors calculates a time less than 0.5 sec. different from a similar calculation based on an "actual" calculated mass of each floor (based on the questionable leaked prints, but probably better than equal mass floors).

What is there to look at. we have an acceleration, impact, loss of some viable mass, acceleration, impact, etc... Just leave the floors suspended magically in space until the falling mass strikes it. Every floor's momentum is zero, but it's mass decreases the oncoming velocity of the falling mass. Oh crap, you know very well how it works, just do it.

With the best stretch of my imagination, I get a minimum collapse time of ~20 sec. while ignoring all structure or any energy loss. It's just a K.I.S.S. observation, but I believe the Law still prevails. Just mentally throw the structure back into the mix, and I think you might estimate or imagine a real world, actual collapse time, around 30 to upwards of 45 seconds.

This is NOT in any way an analysis of how long it should have taken to collapse. Just a rational attempt at determining a minimum possible time based on the RELATIVE mass of consecutive floors and the remaining total falling mass that could have possibly impacted the next one in turn; all the while ignoring any energy loss and structural support. It's really a no-brainer if you care enough to look.
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